Ivy ([info]ivy_rat) wrote,
@ 2008-10-17 12:36:00
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Um, the second half of this turned into a rant. Sorry.
This has to be quick, as I need to go to my folks place to feed dogs, but I haven't been here in a while, so...

First, I have not had time to respond to comments, but I will soon. In the music meme, my sister is sooooo winning. If your sister doesn't know you, who will. Though I was surprised at the songs she didn't know, and I think she even got one wrong...

Scott is working on his next book right now. Next month, he has a date with his publishers to see if they want to publish it. He is putting together a Power Point presentation to show them. In preparation for that, he showed it to me this week.

This is going to be an amazing book. It is funny and sad, it's about life and art and death and what it all means, and watching the presentation I laughed and cried and, just wow. And the main female character is based on me. She looks like me (or at least the way Scott tends to make me look), and I love her. Which is very cool, cause I don't always love me. Seeing yourself through someone else's eyes is a scary thing. But she reminds me of things about me that I like. Part of me wonders how much (if any) of that me is still around.

The next few years that Scott will be working on this book, are going to have an impact on me. I know that they are. Living in the present and in the past, looking at my and our life then and now, seeing what I was, and what I've become... Life 101.

In more present matters, last week I proved that I am not very diplomatic, but that Sky is. There were people with signs for Yes on 8, which is something that I am VERY STRONGLY against. Sky and I went over to talk to them. I was not very civil, I'm afraid. But I just don't understand. At all. And they could not help. One of the two men who spoke to me tried to tell me to look up a particular site on line, and the other guy... Oh, my, the conversation I got into with him:

Him: If these kids (there were lots of kids with signs on this corner), were asked, which do you think they would prefer; being brought up by their loving biological parents, or being raised in an orphanage?
Me: What? What does that have to do with anything.
Him: (repeats himself)
Me: (after much back and forth) Given that choice, the parents, but I know same sex couples raising children that they love
Him: But you just said that they would be better off with their biological parents!
Me: No I didn't! That was your words not mine!
Him: You're getting all upset and not listening to me..

(he was right, I was beyond at the inanity of his arguments. This went on for a while. When he realized he wasn't getting anywhere with this tact he tried another:)

Him: This is just a stepping stone. Next, you'll be saying we should be allowed to marry a horse.
Me: No, that would not be possible. A horse is not a consenting adult.
Him: What if I wanted to marry a horse. And I told you it consented.
Me: You can't. You would be wrong. A horse is not a consenting adult. It is not human, it does not have the ability to give consent. You cannot marry it.

He tried to come up with a comeback to that, but he just couldn't. I could see that he had planned on bringing up marrying children, but I had stressed adult enough times that he knew he couldn't go there. At about this point he wore down, and I needed to get away, so I joined Sky, who was having a very civil conversation with a woman there. Sky was nice. I was very proud of her. I calmed down and the three of us spoke for a bit.

I still don't understand why anyone thinks people getting married is something to be stopped. I don't understand what they are afraid of. And I have proved that I am not very sympathetic to the opposing side in this issue. If anyone can give me a reason why they would vote to ban gay marriage (Yes on 8= No to gay marriage, No on 8= Yes to gay marriage) that makes sense, and doesn't come down to "it's not in our bible, and we think everyone should go by our religion" I would like to know it.

If you are in California, please vote NO on 8! Oh, and Nat, the signs are finally in our windows!

Don't forget 24 Hour Comic Day tomorrow (though I don't think I get to do anything comicy. :-(

(24 comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]phoebesmum
2008-10-17 08:46 pm UTC (link)
If it's any consolation, you were more diplomatic than I could ever have been. My idea of diplomacy in that situation is a smack in the mouth.

... um, maybe I should ask for stronger tranquillisers next time I see the doctor ...

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]ivy_rat
2008-10-23 04:49 pm UTC (link)
I tried to be diplomatic. I didn't succeed nearly as well as Sky did. She is a better man than I...

(sorry I am answering this so late)

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]nualafaery
2008-10-17 08:54 pm UTC (link)
I would have been the same as you. The thought of people in the world trying to stop other people from the right to marry makes me sick.

I guess having a gay sister makes this matter very emotional for me and impossible for me to keep a level head about it. It makes me want to cry just to think someone would want to stop her from marrying someone she loves. Like there isn't enough hate in the world. Why would you want to stop the love?

I can't believe his defense was marrying a horse! That is just a good example of the type of people saying yes to 8. What are they so afraid of?

I guess Mr Ed could talk. The next thing you'll know he'll want to marry Wilbur. The horror...the horror...

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]ivy_rat
2008-10-23 04:53 pm UTC (link)
I love the Mr Ed idea, I could so see him married to Wilbur, they were so made for each other...

Ok. I guess this is why you shouldn't take me out anywhere. ;-)

The part of all this that really confuses me is that they seem so scared. I just don't understand what is scary about two people being in love and wanting to spend their lives together. And for the really religious ones, you'd think being married would be better than living together "in sin" wouldn't you?

(sorry I am answering this so late)

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]kayjkay
2008-10-17 09:52 pm UTC (link)
Some fodder for any other debates

Marriage is not a religious institution. Anthropology tells us that it was not even about love, it was simply one clan and another clan creating alliances. Religion came a lot later.

Ask them if they're opposed to a white person marrying a black person, or an italian marrying someone from japan... or how about someone from Iran marrying someone from Alaska. Same thing. How about a Native American marrying someone from Ireland?

If you boil it down to civil rights it becomes impossible for someone to fight you, because that's what it's about, civil rights.

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[info]ivy_rat
2008-10-23 05:01 pm UTC (link)
I tried the one about marriage being a contract to bind two peoples sets of property, but they would have none of it. I tried the white/black debate too (did I mention I got really mad and had trouble controlling my temper?). I think I would have done better if I had just read the post you posted recently. I love the way it was worded.

I feel like going around find the Yes picketers this weekend, and trying to have a civil argument. The really important thing, that I had forgotten when I had the above conversations, is that we've lived this way for months now, and none of this has happened! Has the world stopped? I think not.

Arg...

(sorry I am answering this so late)

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]merofi
2008-10-17 10:19 pm UTC (link)
Ugh. When I saw that on the ballot I could not BELIEVE it. First of all, it's just ridiculous to be afraid to two people who want to have a life long loving relationship. Secondly, to repeal anyone's rights that are already established is just a really jerk thing to do. I just don't get it.

I'm glad you and Sky were there to engage those folks. I'd be too timid to do something like that. You guys got my admiration!

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]ivy_rat
2008-10-23 05:04 pm UTC (link)
I so agree with you. I don't understand. The more I talk to people about the issue, the less I understand the opposing viewpoint.

I am armed now, with more info than before, there is a part of me that wants to have a do-over. Don't think it would help, but if I could do it without a fight, that would be good. :-)

Just remember to vote!

(sorry I am answering this so late)

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]querldox
2008-10-17 10:27 pm UTC (link)
Well, while I think a lot of it does boil down to "It's in our bible" (or the related "That's how I was raised"), I think one way the Yes on 8 folk view it may be as follows:

1) Marriage is a very important thing. You're at least supposed to expect it to be something you don't do with everyone you meet, only one special someone, and you're supposed to go into it thinking it'll last for the rest of your lives.

2) They don't like gays, or more specifically, don't like gay sex.

3) So combining gays and marriage means taking something they don't like, and adding it to the definition of something they consider very important. It's changing, to them in a bad way, something that was important to them.

Note that these are not my beliefs, just my guess at what some of the Yes on 8 folk may be thinking.

On a comics note, Comet the Superhorse was the adult relative to Supergirl, who may well have been below the age of consent herself when Comet first wooed Linda Lee in his Bronco Bill Starr human id. : -) (Yeah, there was a lot of weird subtext in that, which was all of a teenage girl and her horse, but the horse was human level intelligent with telepathic communication, but he'd been born thousands of years ago as a centaur and turned into a human whenever a comet was in the sky, and during the human bits wooed the girl who didn't know he was usually a horse. I think if I tried explaining that to the typical Yes on 8 type, their head would explode.)

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[info]ivy_rat
2008-10-23 05:10 pm UTC (link)
I would argue your logic, but I know that it's not your logic, so I won't! ;-)

Ok, so Comet the Superhorse, is about the silliest thing I have ever heard. But, between you and me, I am much more liberal than most, and really, I have no trouble at all with a sentient horse wanting to mary a human, as long as the human is aware of the non humanness of their proposed spouse, as one should always have the facts before giving consent...

(sorry I am answering this so late)

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]zia_narratora
2008-10-18 12:06 am UTC (link)
You know what is awesome? I am two for two to moving to new states and having them immediately legalize gay marriage. I should move to somewhere like North Dakota next. Or next door to Fred Phelps.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]ivy_rat
2008-10-23 05:14 pm UTC (link)
Well don't leave here until we find out if we get to keep our gay marriage! ;-)

Fred Phelps= one scary dude.


(sorry I am answering this so late)

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]local_perform
2008-10-18 02:41 am UTC (link)
No I cheated on the last ones, so I do not think I am so winning. I did say I cheated, I remember. I just knew the songs so I had to look them up. Not the first ones, though, those I knew. The second group, where I give all those memories of you and when and why you sing the song.... I think you are blinded by nostalgia. Keep up the good work with Prop 8. Steph and I plan to marry there (though now we may not need to what with CT and MA sandwiching us cozily) ..or at least sometime before the next generation does, I promise! Neahhhhh, Winnie, winnie, brrrhhhhrrrr (shake my mane)

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]ivy_rat
2008-10-23 05:23 pm UTC (link)
I'm going to post the answers to the song meme soon.

It would be sooo cool if you got married here. Though with CT and MA, it's only a matter of time before RI, right? I will be there, no matter where it is (as long as you give me enough notice and all)

Love you.

(sorry I am answering this so late)

(Reply to this) (Parent)
Go Ivy!
[info]akh1221
2008-10-18 03:29 am UTC (link)
I love that you even decided to talk to these people. I would prob be unable to breathe in their presence. Altho, I have found myself arguing against such laws- dredging up some feminist rationale about marriage being about ownership and why would anyone want that? ;)

Might be fun to mess with their heads around that- make em think you were on their side for a bit..

Any who- what a gift to have someone remind you of all the things you like about yourself. They are still there, they don't go away. They might get covered up w other stuff, but with some reminders, other folks reflecting it back- you can see it too. And I love who you've become as well as who you were!


(Reply to this) (Thread)
Re: Go Ivy!
[info]ivy_rat
2008-10-23 05:32 pm UTC (link)
I have wanted to talk to every group I've seen. I thought maybe if I did, they could explain it to me, cause I just don't understand. I still don't.

I get the idea about why marriage shouldn't exist at all, but my feeling is that I shouldn't be dictating what anyone other than I, do. You (proverbial, not you per se) can hate marriage all you want, or you can think that getting married to someone of the same gender is wrong, but that shouldn't affect your neighbor. That's the part that really bothers me, the idea that people think that their views must be forced on everyone. *shudder*

There's a part of me that wants to talk to them again, I feel better armed now than I was then. Oh well, less than a week to go.

Any who- what a gift to have someone remind you of all the things you like about yourself. They are still there, they don't go away. They might get covered up w other stuff, but with some reminders, other folks reflecting it back- you can see it too. And I love who you've become as well as who you were!

I don't know how much of me is the me I used to be. She was kinda awesome, I'm not sure that that is still true. But I really appreciate you thinking I'm still sort of her. I love you. I don't know that you have seen enough of me recently to still love who I've become, but it's nice that you think you do...

(sorry I am answering this so late)

(Reply to this) (Parent)
Life 101 & ranting...
[info]ferretdad
2008-10-18 07:09 am UTC (link)
I hear you about seeing where you were and are. Had a reason to dig through some long-unused drawers, and found hobby supplies for hobbies I haven't had time to touch for years. Why did I stop playing guitar, anyways?

Rant on, Ivy (and keep talking, Sky!). queridox has the best glimpse into the opposition, I think. Churches teach that marriage is a sacrament, and sacraments are (and should be!) important. But Icefox is also correct; marriage is a civil institution. Churches don't really have the right to define it.

My RCIA instructors told me that a sacrament is "an outward and visible expression of an inward and invisible change". It is, in a sense, what you make of it. I've seen some het marriages that are loveless, joyless, and fruitless, and some lifelong gay relationships full of love, joy, and good works. How can one say that the former are sacred and the latter are not?

Churches often try to put boundaries around the Holy Spirit, and never succeed. I hope #8 fails, and I'm proud to live in MA.

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Re: Life 101 & ranting...
[info]ivy_rat
2008-10-23 05:47 pm UTC (link)
This country was, supposedly, founded on religious freedom, the fact that churches think that they can make decisions that affect people who do not share their beliefs seems to go against everything this country stands for. I might not agree with a church to refuse to marry gays, but that doesn't stop them from having the right to refuse, they shouldn't stop me from having the right to marry who I want.

Arg. Yay for MA and now CT!

(sorry I am answering this so late)

(Reply to this) (Parent)
It's OK to rant
(Anonymous)
2008-10-18 03:32 pm UTC (link)
I'm with Alice, what a gift that your life partner will be examining your life. Most life partners wouldn's want any part of that kind of examination. And yes, it is quite scary to see yourself through someone else's eyes like that.

I also think it's cool that you and Sky went over to talk with people from the opposing side of ques 8. Afterall, it's all about communication and education. I'm glad you showed them the flaws in their argument. I once did that with an evangelical who tried to convert me in college. I've found a good calm discussion pointing out the 'flaws' in their logic can go a long way. You may not change their minds, but for a moment, you caused them to pause and stop. It may not seem like an accomplishment, but it really is.

(Reply to this) (Thread)
Re: It's OK to rant
[info]ivy_rat
2008-10-23 05:54 pm UTC (link)
It's not just seeing myself through his eyes as much as not living up to what he remembers me as. It's been a long road. I think I might be a bit worse for wear.

I don't know that Sky and I did any good talking to them. Sky did more good than I. I am too invested and emotional. I think I would do a better job today than I did then. Mostly, talking to them made me realize that most of them don't know why they why they want to limit marriage, they are just doing what their church has taught them. And what a sad place we live in where the churches teach intolerance.

(sorry I am answering this so late)

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(Anonymous)
2008-10-20 02:24 pm UTC (link)
I've come to the conclusion that when certain people keep repeating nonsensical things, they are repeating stuff they heard on conservative talk radio. I'd bet that someone is trying to liken growing up with a gay couple with living in an orphanage -- it's a place to live, but it's not a REAL family. We know this to be garbage, but many people don't think they know any gay people, so they buy the hate-media caricatures.

It makes a BIG difference, and explains the generational shift in attitudes. My eureka moment in high school was the the first openly lesbian couple in my class, when I realized that they were a couple just like my girlfriend and I -- it wasn't just about sex. Some years later, I did a cartoon where I asked the question, "how would [a straight person] feel if people viewed [him/her] solely on the basis of what they imagine you're doing in the bedroom?" I don't think about the sex life of straight friends, and I don't think about it with regard to my gay friends either.

But my first exposure to the concept of gay people came years earlier, from reading sections of my parent's copy of "Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Sex*", and if I remember it correctly, it was AMAZINGLY prejudicial. If I'd never gotten a better picture than that...yikes.

The "horse" sh*t is a reference to moral relativism, which is how many people view gay rights -- "if it feels good, do it." I think my response to that would be: "this is the opposite of moral relativism. I have many gay friends; they are good people, and many are in committed relationships. Gay is who they are, and it is human nature to form lasting conections to other people. I won't tolerate them suffering discrimination at the behest of people who don't know or understand them. That is a MORAL stance."

Anyway, I'm supposed to be working.

Jim H.

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[info]ivy_rat
2008-10-23 06:01 pm UTC (link)
You have a point, I really got the sense that they were only parroting what they had heard back, that they didn't really know why two people of the same gender getting married was bad, just that it was.

Scott is convinced that even if Prop 8 passes (passing=bad) that the shift has begun and that the next generation will look back on this with the same horror we feel when talking about multiracial marriage being illegal in the past.

I completely agree with your version of morality, I don't understand "theirs."

(sorry I am answering this so late)

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(Anonymous)
2008-10-24 06:18 pm UTC (link)
Hey, hey! Did not expect to find THIS in the "Apple Hot News" RSS feeds. Aren't we glad we use Macs?

Jim H.

"Apple is publicly opposing Proposition 8 and making a donation of $100,000 to the No on 8 campaign. Apple was among the first California companies to offer equal rights and benefits to our employees’ same-sex partners, and we strongly believe that a person’s fundamental rights — including the right to marry — should not be affected by their sexual orientation. Apple views this as a civil rights issue, rather than just a political issue, and is therefore speaking out publicly against Proposition 8."

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]ivy_rat
2008-10-24 06:43 pm UTC (link)
GO APPLE!!!

Wow, thank you for passing that on! Yes! I am very happy and proud to be a Mac user.

So. Very. Cool.

Thank you! (you just made my day, and in a few hours I'll be off to stand on a corner with more signs...)

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